I started to reply to my friend, Celtic’s, comment but it got so long, I decided to make it a post. I am not calling him out but our comments have strayed away from the original post of bombing and trying to force out a Christian bookstore in Gaza. (To Celtic, I did respond to your last comment though. The comment I am responding to you is your second last).
We’ve been discussing whether or not America is an extension of the Church and vice versa. I emphatically believe that they are not, evidence of which I pointed out is not only the principle of church and state but especially the fact that Bibles are not permitted in schools. And so here we are.
Celtic, I appreciate the way you said that first line, “I believe you but …”
I honestly thought it was common knowledge that everyone knew you Bible and public schools are very controversial. My comment was specifically directed about the organization of after-school, student-led Bible study groups. There have been a lot of cases taken against school districts over this issue.
Religion in Public Schools
Brochure on School Prayer from Americans United for Sep. of Church and State
Public School Religious Groups
College Bans Dormitory Bible Studies
Good News Club v. Milford Central School District
Student sues after Bible study banned
This is a huge subject and the commentary on any of these links could take us in a number of directions. Also, I am not defending the lawsuits or the cases being made. The first link is the one that I would say is the fairest and if the groups comply with this precedent then great. The second is a brochure on the law on school prayer. The remaining links point to the controversy involving tax dollars, school time, who can be involved, the conditions etc. As said, even if I don’t agree with some of these cases, I am trying to direct you to the use of subject of Bibles in schools which leads to the bigger point that the Church and America are not brother-sister or extensions of each other. IF public schools were teaching from the Bible that Christianity was the truth, then you would have a very strong case.
Consequently, it has become even more difficult for any student-led group of any kind to organize from gay/lesbian groups to other religious groups because it has become such a volatile issue.
So you know, I am not calling for government sanctioned Bible or prayers in our schools. I think it would be a bad thing to have teachers teach Christianity (who may or may not be believers or a desire to teach Christianity. Even worse would be to force someone …).
In high school, I was invited to one and just didn’t enjoy it. For me, I already saw many of these people in church and regularly attended my church so by the time school got out, I either had extra-curriculars, or wanted to go home, go out with friends, or do pretty much anything else then have another Sunday School class or whatever. That was me. As much as this may appear to be a contradiction to what I am posting about, others can have their own opinions and preferences and reasons for wanting such things. I know their club got along for years just fine without me.
There’s more to it though, I know some schools who teach world religion classes systematically and have heard mention of other various other religious classes from a historical or literary perspective. Not relevant here but a case could be made for that as well.
But in regards to what I think of this, I was bothered about the huge issue that was made up of the kindergartener who had Jesus in his painting had wasn’t allowed to have the painting in their art show. Come on.
http://Peck v. Baldwinsville Central School District
2nd Circuit again finds family can sue over Jesus poster
But the point of saying all this is to give even more context to when I continue to insist that Christianity is not an extension of America. In my opinion, it’s a global faith and as I have mentioned before our better scholars predict the epic-centers of Christianity will actually be in South America, Asia and perhaps even Africa and America will look a lot like Europe does now. As I read that book (The Next Christianity by Phillip Jenkins) I thought it may be a little exaggerated but believed that the “power” would be spread. (But I am not a theologian and I have a high respect for Dr. Jenkins). However to his credit, the thought that the biggest churches in the world are in Asia confirms some of this. Soon, there will be South Korean theologians who write from South Korea as opposed to an American seminary. I could go on and on about this and why the biggest churches are in Asia but I am getting sidetracked. But I hope you are seeing what I mean when I say Christianity and America are not extensions of each other. In fact, I think it is completely the contrary. America is becoming more and more secular. “Happy Holidays” vs. “Merry Christmas” is small practical evidence of this.
Celtic, I think I am understanding how you see that above paragraph. I could go through the trouble and copy and paste your last comment (or two comments ago really) but before either of us do, let me say that I can agree with you in the sense that religion can and has been used for political reasons; I do not think I have ever argued against it when put like that. What I will argue against is the idea that the primary use of religion or the implication that religion is “power” to manipulate the “masses” (you of course know the infamous line I am referring to). In that sense, I never want to see my faith used for political reason. Now, before you jump on that, let me also say that my faith extends to every aspect of life (my life and life in general) so it does affect what I believe, say and do socially, environmentally, politically, missionally, etc. But all of our actions take root and begin from our belief systems whether we claim a religion or not. Even more so, when people claim a religion and do something completely contrary to its teachings (like the killing of an abortion doctor is the example we have used several times here), their TRUE belief system is revealed! And not the one they claim to have!
There are several things I know you are trying to get me to see and one that I wish we could find more common ground on is the right role of faith/religion (its freedom) in private and secular life and how it is Scripturally speaking and from the teaching of our Bible-believing churches, it is not to be used for political and social gains but IS to change the heart of a person to what God has called us to: Love God, Love Others.
I am just going to give a quick comment on the whole seperation of church and state. Yes technically it still does exist, but not for long. When you have an official who holds the seat of the HIGHEST office in the nation, blatantly and outwardly claiming, that he was “Put here by God”, meaning his position as president, then you no longer have seperation. When your leader of your country is telling his public that he is waging a war because as he put it publicy “God told him to”, then you no longer have seperation of church and state. When the Pledge of Allegiance, which is still “mandatory” in most public schools, states boldly “One nation, under God”, then you no longer have seperation of church and state. When the Ten Commandments are blatantly put on public display in court houses and official government buildings, then my friend, you no longer have seperation of church and state….
Ha and ONE more thing, when one has to Swear an oath on the Christian Bible in LEGAL elected justices officiated courts, then you do NOT have seperation of church and state… I Rest my case… for now
Jack,
Thank you for the thoughtful and intelligent post. Obviously, I am aware there is a debate about whether or not the bible should be in schools. I am aware that hard right-wing organizations like the ADL push for religion in public schools. I honestly have to question their validity on the subject, like Pat Robertson at a diversity convention.
“IF public schools were teaching from the Bible that Christianity was the truth, then you would have a very strong case.”
However, I am not arguing in a mechanical way that America = Christianity. When I was in China, it bothered me a lot that strangers would approach me and want me to teach them about Christianity, assuming I was a Christian because I was from the West. It bothered me greatly. I was there to learn about Chinese culture, and I found a great many people wanting to be more like the Westerners. I found this in many of my travels. America is considered a Christian nation, and the statistics of those who consider themselves “Christian” in the US is the strong majority. Officially, or theologically speaking, no, there is no absolutist connection. There are officials who put up the Christian “Ten Commandments” in public spaces and do this freely (to my disgust!) so I could easily argue Christianity is the dominate religion.
The Kindergärtner not allowed to have Jesus in his painting pisses me off. If someone said my daughter couldn’t have Mao (or whomever she chose, I would be angry! Artistic expression! C’mon!)
“Happy Holidays” vs. “Merry Christmas” is small practical evidence of this.”
I would argue the opposite. The left never, I repeat never, initiated a “Happy Holidays” campaign. Trust me, because I keep my finger on the pulse of the left. All of it came from right-wing mouth pieces, rather aggressively, demanding their “right” to say “Merry Christmas”. I don’t think you visited my first blog before I removed it (I broke political ties with the RCP), but I argued that the whole debate was an attempt to assert religious domination. In fact, we celebrated Christmas quite joyfully in our way, with pics of Marx, Lenin and Mao, a red star on top of the “holiday” tree, we said Merry Christmas to our Christian friends, and happy holidays, and had a really good, peaceful time. We exchanged gifts (my Christian friends gave me a Che Guevara mouse pad! Woooot!)
So this accusation that the left is trying to prevent people from Christmas is a carefully calculated lie. It would be like me accusing you of trying to stop my family from celebrating May Day. You never have (or would) but because you don’t celebrate May Day, you have a “motive.”
Jack – I am aware of your noble spirituality. You address life in a living, non-dogmatic way which I have great respect for, and try to emulate. It is very difficult when one believes in something so passionately not to become dogmatic, but when one does become that way, they usually have already lost connection with their original intentions. But you’re error is that you sometimes emotionalize complex situations to the extent that the matter is gray. And sometimes things are gray, but when it comes to Palestine, I don’t think this is the case.
LCF and I watched Munich last night. We were both saddened and disturbed by the violence. We don’t agree with using Olympic athletes as political pawns, or occupying entire nations. But there is much content to be judged by an oppressed people fighting against their occupiers. That much is not gray. You don’t use the bible like a technical instruction book, like the Christian fascists do, but they do, and they influence many to their side.
They think of Israel as a biblically pivotal state that must be defended at any cost, even if it means defending a new holocaust. They deny or attempt to justify mass graves of women and children as “terrorist strongholds”. They see their actions as fulfillment of prophecy, of acting of “god’s will.” This is my problem. And Christianity has been friends with the state of Israel since its bloody conception.
And it worries me because I know you run with the crowd that sometimes listen to these folks. Look, I am not taking high ground here. I think most American communists are prone to dogmatism and rigidity. There are some (FRSO [FIGHT-BACK!]) that mechanically defend Stalin and all his actions. And I tell the same to my comrades who listen to them. I see the Stalin era as complicated, sometimes heroic, sometimes barbarically criminal. But they see it as a dividing line to who “is really a communist.” But we can not in honesty to the masses of people (yourself included) defend the criminal things about Stalin and the period. And the FRSO is the red version of these Christians I am talking about.
I hope you see this as a concerned warning from a friend, not a philosophical scolding. We like the same music, the same kind of coffee places, and if we lived closer, would probably spend afternoons debating this in person. But since that isn’t possible, I can only give you my honest and caring advice.
Because we haven’t lived in a country ruled by a theocracy, accusing America of having a sanctioned government is crazy to me. We do have a Christian heritage in this country. Like it or not that’s part of our cultural genealogy. Until you get sentenced to jail or death for being Wiccan or Muslim or any other religion or lack of, then I think you see evidence of that line though we can argue what that line crosses at the same time.
Also, apparently none of those links helped but one of them was from the site Americans for Separation of Church and State. I thought that showed evidence that we are not living in a “Christian nation”.
Regarding Bush: I am not sure why his comments prove sep. church/state have been cancelled out.
Either way, he can say whatever he wants but just because he says God put him there does not mean God actually put him there. I don’t really know that God put Hitler in charge, Saddam, whoever you want to name.
Celtic, appreciated the comments.
I’ll give you the idea that Christianity is the most popularly claimed religion in the US (didn’t think dominant was the best choice of words).
Those judge(s) (and I thought it was only that one in Alabama but I am not doubting you) was forced to remove the 10 Commandments statue. That issue is not as complicated, I just don’t care too much about it to argue for or against it.
Agreed about the freedom of expression for the kindergartner even if he/she is painting Moses, Mao, or Mickey.
Maybe happy holidays/Merry Christmas wasn’t the best example. I don’t really care that much about it, just thought it was something accessible for the both of us. I think there is some thing to respecting heritage and keeping tradition as well (which is part of the case of the 10 Commandments and this Merry Christmas thing) but this isn’t where I am going to take a stand in the “culture war”. There are much more present matters. But this whole thing created by the right is an interesting idea. I’ll do some thinking on that.
Thank you for the compliment on not being dogmatic while trying to be passionate. It’s a balancing act that I have not yet got down but thanks for the kind words.
Regarding your constructive criticism of “But you’re error is that you sometimes emotionalize complex situations to the extent that the matter is gray.”,
I’d like to insist that there is an emotional aspect that must be considered. We are talking about people. Whether they be Palestinian, Israeli, Iraqi, American, North Korean, whatever, they are people. So when I hear you say Israel has no right to the land, I say the same thing to those that say the opposite – we are talking about people not just objective, plastic ideas. I have tried to apply this to every aspect from the woman who has the abortion to the doctor who performed it to whoever. For I believe we are all created in the image of God. I will be the first to say that it is more difficult for me to afford this grace to the likes of Fred Phelps or the suicide bomber and may the Holy Spirit give me the grace to truly love my enemy. (I am not a finished product, I am in need of much work).
Also, it’s important that we think with our minds and hearts. We have a tendency to dehumanize people when we don’t. Emotions are part of the context but I can agree that we should not think with our emotions only.
Which brings another matter, I am not being defensive but I doubt you only think with objectivity either. I don’t think anyone could. I think part of the reason we are able to discuss these matters from opposite matters is because we try to keep our emotions in check but with all respect, I don’t think you are completely emotionless either. And let me say, this is a good thing.
I’m glad you saw Munich. I thought very highly of the movie but I disagree with the idea of revenge killing. (I believe in pursuing justice which still may lead to death but I think we can see a difference). What I liked especially was the eventual self-conflict with Bana’s character.
So regarding Israel-Palestine, you really think after 60 some years, the solution is to simply kick out the Israeli’s? Where do you suggest they go?
Please remember I am not pro-Israeli, though you are right that many in the church are for some of the reasons you mentioned and then some others. I have been in heated discussions with several of my Christian friends when I protested to the use of the term, “God’s children” as it related to Jews. I asked them according to our theology, if a person rejects Christ as their Savior, will they spend their eternity with God? Of course they immediately said “No.” So I asked, the same question but specifically said Jew. Initially there were mixed responses but eventually to be consistent with our theology, we agreed that they wouldn’t be spend their eternity in heaven with God either. Which logically led to my point, “If being a child of God means I spend eternity in Hell, then don’t call me His child and I won’t call Him my Father”. Logically then, you might do better being considered His enemy. I’ve had this conversation several times, some of my friends have been convinced by this, some have years later changed their mind and of course, some others have not. Though my theology is not perfect either, I hope most parts are not as illogical and unbiblical. The Covenant is not about ethnicity, it’s about the desire to pursue God with every fiber of our being and pursue His will.
See the beauty of the Gospel is that we all have the opportunity to be considered a child of God by calling on the name of His Son for salvation. It is not exclusive to those of any nationality or section of the world. (In the Old Testament, non-Jews, Gentiles of course, could also be included). I am not really trying to convert you here, I am just trying to explain our beliefs.
Anyway, that’s part of it. I told you before that I have other people close to me that are Palestinian. They are Christian and had experienced much persecution while growing up there. Our families are very grateful for immigrated here. I can’t separate that emotional context from the logical and the objective one. I think only the heartless could.
Enjoying our talk Celtic and yes, drinking coffee and discussing such matters would be a nice thing. Who knows.
I will keep this response to TWO of your points. The first being and I quote:”Until you get sentenced to jail or death for being Wiccan or Muslim or any other religion or lack of…”
Need I remind you of the Salem Witch Trials. Now while those may have occured MANY years ago, their significance can not and must not be underscored. One Giles Cory was literally crushed to death by stones and countless more were burned atthe stake or hung. Now I know what YOU will say, “LCF, That happened SO long ago.” and you are correct, but it’s relevance can’t be underscored.
The Holocaust wasYEARS ago as well and we have obviously forgotten about it or else things such as Rwanda and Darfur would not be happening in todays world. A genocide is a genocide my friend, no matter WHAT the skin color. And yes the Holocaust had a WHOLE hell of a lot to do with religion. You are talking to someone who knows a LOT about the subject.
In todays terms, we do have persecution of Muslims. It may not have taken the form of prisoners, to my knowledge though, those in Guantanamo are primarily Muslim, but it has taken the form of the beginning of a movement of Anti Islamic outcries across the nation. From the day after Sept. 11th, there were SEVERAL Muslim Mosques firebombed, numerous Muslims were refused service in grocery stores and minimalls and Muslim neighbors across the nation had their houses robbed, grafittied and worse. So I am not sure what newspapers you have been reading, but Muslims persecution in the USA is alive and well. Perhaps you have gotten used to it by now though. It happens.
The second comment I would direct your attention to is, and again I quote you:”Regarding Bush: I am not sure why his comments prove sep. church/state have been cancelled out.”
You seemed to have missed my ENTIRE post, so I shall for your benifit repost it here and I quote:
:I am just going to give a quick comment on the whole seperation of church and state. Yes technically it still does exist, but not for long. When you have an official who holds the seat of the HIGHEST office in the nation, blatantly and outwardly claiming, that he was “Put here by God”, meaning his position as president, then you no longer have seperation. When your leader of your country is telling his public that he is waging a war because as he put it publicy “God told him to”, then you no longer have seperation of church and state. When the Pledge of Allegiance, which is still “mandatory” in most public schools, states boldly “One nation, under God”, then you no longer have seperation of church and state. When the Ten Commandments are blatantly put on public display in court houses and official government buildings, then my friend, you no longer have seperation of church and state….”
which was also followed by the following, and I quote again:
“Ha and ONE more thing, when one has to Swear an oath on the Christian Bible in LEGAL elected justices officiated courts, then you do NOT have seperation of church and state… I Rest my case… for now “
Jack,
I absolutely have emotions that come into play into my subjective perception. And I agree this is not a bad thing so long as it does not blind us to facts. What I am saying, and I think to a degree you changed my mind, is that you sometimes let the emotional take over.
I would entirely opposed to forcing Jews out of the area, or attacking innocent people for the sake of political gain (like some Islamic Clerics have suggested..) but I think there is a solution for both Israeli and Palestinian people: ditch your reactionary governments and unite to form a single nation based on democratic functioning and social justice.
Let me explain, I hate the Israeli government, not the people. I certainly feel for the Jewish people who have long suffered. But I don’t make that a justification for genocide. And I am not really that thrilled with the Palestinian regime either. But neither of this is the point. What rights to autonomy a self-government do the Palestinians have when they elect a party that the U.S. doesn’t like, so they tug on the Israeli’s to jump up and down about Hamas’s “violations” of agreements. Did Hama’s violate anything? Nope. The only thing Hamas did was, win the national elections (to their surpise, I think.) And they weren’t Fatah.
Israel is a tool of the U.S. This point is unconestable to me.
I was relieved to read your polemic with the pro-Israeli crowd. Maybe my concern was unfounded afterall.
Celtic, I have greater respect for you after reading these thoughts. The Jewish people and the Israeli government are different matters and I am not trying to be funny but again this is what makes this issue so complicated. You are even alluding to it yourself by not agreeing with one side or the other but calling for a single system. It’s a good dream and I’d like to see something like that come to fruition.
I am not contesting US-Israeli relations and glad to hear that you have issues with both regimes but care for both people groups.
Thank you for appreciating my comments on the Church-Israel thing. It was a pretty big deal at the time.
Nothing further to add but I am glad we were able to see more of each other’s perspective.
Well LCF, I still can’t understand most of your point. I think you are confusing too many issues together.
For one who says that you know so much about holocaust and genocide (and the Salem Witch Trials, are you serious stating this is a relevant example?), can you explain what this has to do with the topic of church and state? Also, I don’t want to patronize but you are really coming out of left field here, are you aware that the US was not responsible for killing the Jews? (it was the Nazi Germans) (or pick any other genocide you want)
“A genocide is a genocide”, what’s going on here? Did I ever defend genocide? And again, church-state? What’s happening in Guantanamo has nothing to do with the idea of sep. of church and state either! It’s a different issue. No, I am not defending it either.
Quite the opposite. 4 years ago, I started writing my letters and contacting my Congressmen (among other things) 4 years ago regarding Sudan. Currently my church (15 of whom are in New Orleans right now. I drove the pastor to the airport yesterday) is trying to raise my money and awareness for the children of Uganda who are being kidnapped. It’s the Invisible Children project. But this entire thing has nothing to do with church-state.
And you can repeat it over and over but your Bush line of thought makes no sense to this topic and that’s lame to paste the same point again like that. Again, I could reciprocate by doing the same thing, cutting and pasting my last response as well and even suggest being less “emotional”. I am not trying to be mean, I didn’t think you presented a good argument. Frankly, I don’t have a clue of what you are trying to say. And if you say that it’s a great argument because you know so much (which is your classic line for everything and you accuse me for being “annoying”. By the way, I did respond to your suggestion on the Gaza Christian bookstore post), forgive me for not knowing a great rebuttal when I see one. I have no trouble admitting that I don’t understand.
Swearing on the Bible is the only one you claim close to contributing something constructive here but considering everything else you wrote you was difficult for me to appreciate it. Anyway, I already explained that this is part of American tradition. And many are not aware, but swearing on the Bible is completely optional. That’s important here and confirms that there is no Christian requirement but indicates a Christian heritage.
The entire structure of oath is based on the idea that we swear by something or someone greater than ourselves. Its origins are in ancient culture but here in the US, it’s traced back to the Christian heritage that this country was founded on; it’s part of our cultural genealogy. The pledge, our currency, all that is heritage not church-sanctioned laws and are not violations of the idea of church and state (which by the way is a principle from a letter that Jefferson wrote and not actually found in the Bill of Rights or our Constitution or Declaration).
Let me also explain that there really is no such thing as complete secularism as is the goal of some. Even atheism is not consistent with secularism because it contains a belief system which is not neutral. It really is its own religious system minus its version of a church structure but atheism contains its own theology or (atheology), it’s own system of beliefs. I say all that to say by simply getting rid of swearing on a Bible or deleting “In God We Trust” is only a substitute for another religion, another belief system. To put it better the absence of a belief system is a belief system or “my religion is that I have no religion or believe that I have no belief”. Thus, we have preserved part of the identity of the beliefs America was founded on. Unfortunately for some, they were Christian beliefs. Fortunately, you are not required to believe in them. That’s why again, we are not a theocracy and there is a sep. of church and state although debates are still waging on where the line is drawn.
I’ll tell you what though, show me the day when you get put on trial for converting to any other religion and I will whole-heartedly agree with you, stand beside you in the protests and pray against an American Constantinople.
“Also, I don’t want to patronize but you are really coming out of left field here, are you aware that the US was not responsible for killing the Jews? (it was the Nazi Germans)”
yes dear I am aware who did what, but our government KNEW about it…. Sorry to tell ya that, but you can read about America’s knowledge of the Holocaust as it was occuring in pretty much ANY library ANYWHERE… We knew and by us knowing and doing NOTHING to stop it at its beginning, we are just as culpable.
“Anyway, I already explained that this is part of American tradition. And many are not aware, but swearing on the Bible is completely optional.”
Yes a Christian American tradition thus negating seperation of church and state laws. Upon doing some research I do stand corrected. The new laws make it an option.. so you are correct on that ONE point. But you have yet to show me evidence on the other points I made. And I made a LOT I could post this all to my blog and let others decide….all you managed to show was that this country was built on a religious tradition and then boldly states seperation of church and state. That merely shows the hypocricy of the US and the way this country is ran.
A few years ago and actually recently, people have TRIED to get the pledge changed to delete the words from the pledge. It did not happen. Also our government has sanctioned a national mandated holiday called “The Day of Prayer”. This is clearly illegal under our laws, yet the government has sanctioned it as a legal holiday. Can you explain the seperation of church and state in that one Jack?
You say it is all voluntary, but for how long? Christians in the Right are desending on America and THEY must be stopped. This is MY country just as much as it is yours and if you want ME to respect your Christian views, then you Christians need to start respecting mine.
Seperation of church and state, COMPLETLY.
No MORE God in my courts, my schools, on my money, in, on or around anything relating to THE government of THIS country.
If you want to worship on your own in private away from my child, go for it, but don’t you DARE shove it down my throut DAILY in the most auspicious ways. I will NOT tolerate that one :D
I have taken it upon myself Jack, to go into a little more detail for you on my blog. It appears you are having troubles comprehending my posts on here, so I felt that perhaps others input, may help you understand my position. I do hope you will take a look.