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Karl Giberson's Interview with Skeptic's Michael Shermer

November 20, 2008 by 1 Comment

This past Monday night my friend Tim and I went to another event put on by the Templeton Foundation. This was part of the Book Forum Series and it featured Karl Giberson’s Saving Darwin: How to Be a Christian and Believe in Evolution. The night was centered on Giberson being interviewed by Skeptic magazine editor, Michael Shermer.  It took place at the Harvard Club in Manhatten and it had good food and wine, friendly people – well worth the effort of driving into the city. 

Part of Karl’s story is that he approached this subject coming from a fundamentalist background and while in college starting appreciating some of the elements of science and fell in love with a lot of Darwin and other evolutionary ideas.  Though you may have heard that part of the story before (it could even be yours), he adds in his book that growing up, his hero was the early earther, creation apologist Henry Morris.  I found that to be interesting.

Shermer and Giberson had a very polite and enjoyable conversation.  I’m not sure if it actually ever got too awkward and I credit Shermer for creating a positive mood.  In fact, I thought there were several moments were he could have debated but his role was to interview and I appreciated the level of restraint he demonstrated. 

So can you be a Christian and believe in evolution (the macro)? Giberson insists that you can.  He also said that the creationist tends to turn the Genesis account into a proto-science (and it’s not meant to be scientific).  When we compare against the theory of evolution we rob ourselves from the goodness of the other stories.  Further if we get distracted by the first couple chapters in Genesis, we miss too much.

As he was talking about the origins of fundamentalism he mentioned that creationism wasn’t considered a fundamental back in the early part of the 20th century. Found that also to be intriguing.

In short, Shermer kept on a line of questions that more or less asked, then why continue be a Christian.  He even questioned his motivation by saying, “You’re not pretending to believe this to make life easier for  yourself …. are you?”

Giberson did not give any overly dramatic answers.  I would tell you that he felt very comfortable and confident in his reconciling of faith and science.  He mentioned a couple times in various contexts that he maintains in the existence of God, that Christianity offers a richer worldview, that he believed in the resurrection and so on.  I also appreciated that he said that we believe “loads and loads” of things that step outside science.  He didn’t get into the details as the conversation kept moving but as much as I appreciate science as well, I thought that was a friendly reminder.

One last thing that got me thinking was his discussion on the education that Christian congregations give to their children.  As a youth pastor, this is something that I have thought about over and over not only in the teenage years but in those formative children’s years.  I plan on doing some reflection on this point in particular. 

In not wanting to make this too long of a post, I remember reading a book (by a Christian author) of some of the beautiful things that Darwin said and his inner conflicts and struggles.  In brief, too many Christians portray him as a Herod and that it is a mistake.

After some questions and answers, there was a gentlemen (I believe from the museum of science) who closed the night with some great Darwin quotes.  So good, they could probably be quoted from the pulpits if we left the name off or credited to C.S. Lewis.

I encourage you to read the book.  I skimmed most of it and plan on giving it more attention.  It’s not really an apologetic on evolution or Christianity but I think it’s serves as a great first step to those of us interested in this conversation.

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Francis Chan at #NYWC in Pittsburgh

November 18, 2008 by Leave a Comment

 Youth Specialties Pittsburgh – General Session 3 – Francis Chan – Post 5

Francis Chan was the speaker for General Session 3.  He’s a great speaker, great energy, all that you would expect from a gen. session speaker.  Honesty, I wasn’t sure about him since I heard a particular podcast that kinda … hmm … not sure what the word is here but I wasn’t feeling him.  Glad we don’t finalize our impressions from one interview or something though.

Anyway, I connected with this message.  Loved that he spoke about the complexities of parables.  Reminding us that Jesus actually wanted people to work and struggle through their meanings.  They were for those who wanted to know and wanted to be his disciples. 

I am lost as a listener every time someone says something to the effect of “It’s easy, we just need to GO!!” or “the Gospel isn’t rocket science”.  It’s actually harder then rocket science.  Anyway, Francis didn’t do that.

One of his main points was, “We as youth pastors do so many things different than Jesus.”  I’ve always tried do to the alternative youth ministry thing but even there, I find myself doing things that Jesus might consider unnecessary.   

He also said: In reaching our students we overestimate the importance of attendance.  To the point that when kids leave, we beg for them to come back, offer pizza, prizes.  Jesus let the crowds leave for the effect of his message.

On Salt:  “Jesus talking about salt and its use.  He says that some of you are “flavorless salt” that has not use.  It’s not enough good enough to be used as manure.”

Jesus was saying, “You are ruining crap”. 

He used a fun illustration of adding  a big pile of flavorless salt to small packet’s size worth of salt.  Who adds flavorless salt to real salt?  Why would you do that?  Ohhh, because we like to have bigger piles, bigger crowds, bigger attendance etc. 

We can build our congregations, we can get people to come front. He joked how he has a story that gets people to come down every time.  True, true. 

But what we need is something super-natural.  We need life change. 

He spoke about Elijah as a man just like him.  Fire can come down from heaven but it’s the work of God not of ours. 

“It will be hard but we must teach and lead like Jesus.”  

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Reflecting on Marko's words from #NYWC in Pittsburgh

November 14, 2008 by Leave a Comment

Mark Ostreicher, National Youth Workers Convention – Youth Specialties – Pittsburgh – 11.3.08

 

I appreciate Mark Ostreicher from YS.  I really do. For many reasons but I don’t feel like listing them.  But I’m glad that he’s the president of YS.  And being president and hosting the YS event, I appreciate that he took the last session on Monday morning when so many attendees have already left. Most presidents of organizations take the best attended session to celebrate their position and their egos but in the tradition of Mike Yaconelli and Tic Long, this is a humble expression that I appreciate.

So there we are Monday morning and Marko was rewinding the events and themes of the conference and said that he felt that he should get rid of what he was planning to say.  I do that too.  Like when I have nothing, or when I know what I have is garbage, I too pull an Eli Manning and change the play at the line.  (Just kidding, Marko has too good of a mind to pull off lame speaker antics).

 

He told us that he thought he had the pinnacle of youth minisry with this “Back to School” Bash even that brought thousands of kids out.  He would walk around and ask people, “Did you see that?  God was truly working!”  Later on, he realied that in all the years of bumping into former students and reconnecting through facebook, none fo them ever said, “That event changed my life”.

 

That’s usually my argument against Christian t-shrts and bumper stickers but I appreciated Marko using it to describe events.  Because although I rarely thrown these types of events where I rent out an amusement park, I do take some pride in the events we do. 

 

He mentioned a couple of things that he felt were more worthwhile and they were things like the communion he enjoyed with his house church.  They had great meals together, they would enjoy the quietness together, share, pray, etc. 

 

It was void of great size but deep with community and mission.  Then he said, “Small is the value in the kingdom of God.”.   Here’s some more

it’s simple in its dna and structure

            beautiful and simple presence of Jesus moving into the world

            present, not distracted.

            it’s always changing, it cannot be packaged

 

            It’s fluid because the gospel is not an idea, it’s the person of Christ.

            Christ is the midst already present,            

            We can’t conjure it up with slight of hand and amazing programming. 

But we are the equipment.  (not the youth room etc.) bc what we have is Christ the hope of glory – this is the gospel that we bring to our kids. 

            The stuff that you thought you needed is a deterrent to youth ministry.

 

I love this idea for so many reasons.  One, it celebrates all that are in youth ministry.  Most conferences dangle the carrot of numbers and status in front of you forgeting the fact that many would routinely walk away from Jesus and he spent a great deal of his time in smaller numbers.  Second, while there is a place for signage, promotion and the pursuit of better resources, it is not in the place of the heart of the Gospel.  This is something we can all buy into and it’s nice to hear it from a guy like Marko.

 

I’ll  end this post by using his closing “May you deeply blessed as you remember the real gospel in your soul.”

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Reflecting on Pete Rollins’ Idea of the "Third Person"

November 14, 2008 by Leave a Comment

I mentioned in my previous post about the Mid-Atlantic Conference in Philly that I liked this illustration:

“(Pete) used this story (that will not work in youth group) about an average guy stranded on a beach with a beautiful woman.  He hits on her with great persistence and finally she gives in and they sleep together.  In the morning, he asks her to put on a mustache  and a ball cap and meet him on the beach that afternoon.  Initially she objects, he persists, she shows up with the fake mustache and ball cap.  He then tells his friend, “You never would have believed who I slept with last night – this beautiful woman …”  the point being he needed a buddy to justify the experience.  For some, that third person is God (or our abstract idea of what we think is God).”

This illustration was in a context of not knowing what you are really looking for even though you think  you do.  So, when you are looking to date someone you never find the right person, because that person does not exist.  It’s not until you are not looking that you find the right one. 

So Pete used this illustration that cracked me up and I’m still thinking about it.  Does God really count as a “third person”?  The simple and easy answer is yes and that’s why the illustration works. 

In light of all the discussions of the god(s) that is/are created and even Rob Bell’s the gods aren’t angry, I have an understanding on this idea but what bugs me is that many times, for me, “God” (or the idea of God) makes a horrible third person to validate (or justify as Pete said) the experience.  To me the illustration implies the third person is needed to almost wake up the guy so he doesn’t think he’s dead or still dreaming or congratulate him (to complete the experience as Pete says) but God doesn’t really do any of that.  In fact, many times, quite the opposite.  I cannot help but think that many times our experiences with God continue pushing us to keep looking for the third person.  (Maybe this is why we have these celebrity type senior pastors who are larger then life but they are needed to validate the experience.)

I think I understand what Pete is saying.  Like if we are praying for the health of a loved one’s health, we would only be wishful thinking or talking to ourselves if we didn’t believe in God (or the third person). But I couldn’t help but include the aforementioned in my thoughts.

Anyway, no illustration is obviously perfect but this has occupied my mind the past couple days.  Does God make a good “Third Person”?  What do you think?

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Emergent Mid-Atlantic Conference with Pete Rollins and John Franke

November 11, 2008 by 1 Comment

Had the Phillies not won the World Series this season, I would have said that this was the best day Philadelphia had this year.  The Emergent Mid-Atlantic Conference at the Church of the Holy Trinity with

Peter Rollins and John Franke was fantastic.  Pete gives quite a performance.  He speaks pretty fast in a thick Irish accent, uses his hands, quotes everyone from Nietzsche and Bonhoeffer, uses parables, recites stories, employs hyperbole, and chugs coffee. 

It was great to have John Franke there to share from his perspective and to hear the two of them dialogue with each other.  You can listen to all the audio here (Thanks Scott).  

To keep it short, I’m sacrificing context – here are my highlights/questions/etc.:

– Loved the idea of the “Third Person” that is needed to justify an experience.  He used this story (that will not work in youth group) about an average guy stranded on a beach with a beautiful woman.  He hits on her with great persistence and finally she gives in and they sleep together.  In the morning, he asks her to put on a mustache  and a ball cap and meet him on the beach that afternoon.  Initially she objects, he persists, she shows up with the fake mustache and ball cap.  He then tells his friend, “You never would have believed who I slept with last night – this beautiful woman …”  the point being he needed a buddy to justify the experience.  For some, that third person is God (or our abstract idea of what we think is God).

– “… God becomes the crutch to save us from the abyss”

– paraphrase –  “(for some) we need a God to save us from fears, insecurities …. In this way, God is only an aid that leads us to practical atheism”.

– He told a story about a man who said to his neighbor that someone needed to help this poor family.  The father was just laid off, the mother was ill, the children were hungry, and the landlord was about to evict them.  The neighbor responded, “Oh that’s terrible.  How do you know them?”  The other replied, “I’m the landlord!”.  This story pointed at the disconnect between the Church’s concern with no practical application.

– He spoke about the importance of belonging over belief.  This one gave me trouble til he clarified that it was post-conversion. 

– Christianity draws a circle but the faithful Christian goes outside the circle and embraces the excluded. – This is another example of the fidelity of betrayal.

– Every time we create a god, we create a bigger/better image of ourselves. 

– Numerous examples from IKON:

       – In such deep conversation with someone that you do not even know their eye color because the                     conversation is so imtimate that you cannot even remember the external. 

      – IKON tries to encourage its people to see its community as a doughnut.  There is nothing in the center          (no pastoral authority/presence), only the person next to you.  So if the person next to you, doesn’t              care, no one is there to help you.  This encourages that each support the other bc no one else is                  going to do it.

– John Franke:

– As Christians, we must speak of God but we are human and cannot.  We must acknowledge our obligation and responsibility in that very way we give glory to God.  (I think it was a Barth quote).

– Barth – to speak about God as God knows Himself to be. 

– John shared on the obligations we have to carry the gospel (we are ambassadors)

– We must neither contradict or cohere for they don’t negate the other.

– It’s a manifold witness.

– Example of four Gospels instead of one.  There is a plurality. 

– We as the people of God to go out to the world by the power of the Holy Spirit…

As mentioned, it really was a great day.  I’ve expressed gratitude in other posts but I look forward for Thomas to send us next year’s email.

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Tony Jones at Youth Specialties – General Session – 11.2.08

November 7, 2008 by 5 Comments

First, it’s about time Tony speaks at the General Session at YS’s National Youth Workers Convention.  Because the world tends to revolve around me, I did literally write in last year’s eval that Tony should be a given  a general session.  (I’m sure YS would have come up with this had I not written that since I’m pretty sure those evals head straight for recycling but it’s a great ploy in making attendees feel heard – lol.)

After a warm introduction from Marko, there was the Church Basement Road Show thing with Doug Pagitt and Mark Scadrette (who makes a hilarious preacher-type and in real life is the author of Soul Graffiti – Making a Life in the Way of Jesus).  After that, Tony began speaking …. lol– just kidding.  I, for one enjoyed the CBRS and couldn’t stop laughing, especially at Doug.  How one of the most brilliant minds that you’ll ever meet got roped into this is either a great sign of friendship or there is some Josey-Bass statistic out there that has an irrefutable link to dressing up like a 20th century traveling southern evangelist and selling thousands of copies of A Christianity Worth Believing. 

On Tony’s new belief.net blog, he wrote that he was afraid that some people didn’t get it. He and his friends are in good company for a lot of people didn’t understand the parables of Jesus and a lot of men don’t understand women and a lot of us don’t understand Sigur Rios but love them all anyway.  Perhaps some didn’t get it but for all the times I’ve had to listen to a Josh McDowell type, I appreciate YS considering those like me. 

After the Tony & Trucker Frank clip (which is brilliant), Tony shared a little about his journey, his faith and the nature of truth.  If you know Tony, you know that he’s well-educated, brilliant, and never got the memo that  you don’t have to talk to people after you speak.  He probably doesn’t know that because he was a youth pastor for 20 years (source: Marko) and as many of you know, after you just spent 25 minutes sharing the most profound truth humankind has ever known, you are talking to 10th graders about LeBron, Brittany, and the big Algebra test.   Seriously, Tony as well as many of his friends, are among the most accessible to have conversation with you.

Tony talked about his life starting in his senior year of  high school about a letter that his youth pastor made him write to himself that was sent during his freshmen year at Dartmouth  It was a helpful reminder of the presence of Christ in his life.  He shared about his college bible study experience (this story is in his excellent book, The New Christians – you should read it), his Fuller Seminary experience, his studies in philosophy and learning how to understand the great German theologians … in German.  This story transitioned into the importance of living out the Gospel relationally while he lived in a poor part of South Dakota in the Indian reservations.  If there’s something wrong with Tony, it’s that he speaks better of his time living in South Dakota then he does about his experience in New Jersey (he studied at Princeton Theological Seminary and is currently finishing up his doctorate).

Then the scary part, that wasn’t that scary … unless you are addicted to you pre-conceived notions and couldn’t wait to pick on something.  Tony talked about the nature of truth.  What he said was extremely appropriate for a YS General Session and from my seat, I hoped it stirred people’s appetites.  He said that truth walked with Adam & Eve, wrestled with Jacob, was in a cloud leading the Israelites and that truth was born as a man and had foot fungus and bowel movements and about the profound nature of Christ.  “It’s truth with dirt under its fingerails.  That’s our truth.”  

Reminding everyone that it we couldn’t reduce it all to passages or theologies. It was almost a Pauline moment, “If anyone has right to boast …”.  He asked us youthworkers to remember that it’s worth being locked in a YMCA with junior highers, and be underpaid, overworked, and unappreciated.   But it was well worth it to “bask in the knowledge” share the truth with our young people. 

I am a fan and a friend of Tony and as a brother in the Lord was proud of his time.  Toward the end of 2003, it was books like Postmodern Youth Ministry and McLaren’s New Kind of Christians that w

ere very helpful for me like many others.   It would be typical to end the story that people rushed the stage for his blessing upon them but he ended up announcing that he was going to play the Jesus Road show song to open up the Crowder set which launched everyone out of their seats to the main stage.  So typical of Christians to rush past the challenging stuff to get to the good and comfortable stuff (I love Crowder too, don’t miss my point).

For many this was a great starting point.  And For people like me who are barely two steps ahead in this part of the journey, it was more than a good moment but a necessary one. I need to see organizations like YS encourage this part of the conversation.  I don’t need everyone to be emergent.  Not needed at all but what I would appreciate is that before people attack the conversation and the people that are having the conversation to know the conversation and to participate in it.

 

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YS Pittsburgh – GS 2 – M. Feinberg, A. Marin, S. Chan-Rah – Post 4 – #nywc

November 1, 2008 by 4 Comments

Last night was probably one of the best general sessions I had been to at YS.  They had an interesting format, 3 speakers, 18 minutes each, 6 minute discussions with those around you after each speaker, 6 minutes of questions that were submitted via text message.  (not real sure about the times but it was something like that. 

The first speaker was Margaret Feinberg.  Appreciated what she had to say and the spirit she said it in.  I felt that her message may have gotten a little lost out of the three but here’s also what I think I know.  There were some people who probably really connected with her.  Some who really needed to hear another woman speak (that doesn’t work on staff for YS.  We love/appreciate you Jeanne). 

Margaret spoke about her journey, personal, professional, the call of  God, the storms, the joys, and the journey with Him.  My favorite part was when she said something to the effect of “We like to think that surrender is one big decision but it’s not.  Surrender is thousands of  decisions that shape our commitment”.  In contrast to the prosperity gospel and whatever, I always appreciate when we are reminded by discussing sacrifice and surrender. 

The second speaker was Andrew Marin.  Jeanne said in her introduction that this is a discussion that we have had for a while but haven’t had it up front in a general session yet.  She said we found someone who can do that and he was Andrew.

Andrew began my sharing how his 3 closest friends in 3 consecutive months revealed to him they were gay.  Indeed that’s pretty crazy.   Long story short – In order to understand homosexuality, his friends, and the Gospel more, he moved to a part of Chicago that had a large gay population, went to gay bars, events, and tried to become as  he said, “the gayest straight guy in Chicago”.

Very, very true that we as believers need to do a much better job for the homosexual community.  We should begin by bringing them into our churches.  Andrew suggested that almost every school has a Gay-Straight Alliance that we could be a part of. 

Since this is a blog, I feel I can write this.  I think one of the memorable moments was when he said something like, “We need to stick it to the man” in referring to how some institutions need to woken up.  Not sure if that’s the best use of these types of expressions concerning the subject but everyone around me quietly laughed for 20 minutes.  It’s a room full of youthworkers so understand that but as for me, I’ll never forget to include this part of the story. 

But I don’t want to pick on stuff like that or which Scriptures he used and didn’t use (he was clear that he thought the Scriptures taught that homosexuality is a sin) but it was good to have Andrew as part of the night. 

The last presenter was Soong Chan-Rah who was introduced by Marko explaining the genesis of this relationship.  If you were part of the YS’s email list, then you know that in one of the skit books, there was a Chinese restaurant owner as a character that was made fun.  It included the broken English, to the phonetically spelled mispronunciations to other offensive stereotypes.  It was Soong who brought it to Marko’s attention which quickly led to a huge apology, retraction and in short, a humble and beautiful moment in resolve and reconciliation.  So they reminded some of that story.

Not sure what was the highlight but was thrilled when Soong Chan- Rah said something to the effect of “we interpret Christianity through a western white understanding not through the Scriptures”.  It’s a shock value statement of course.  (There is no such thing as an objective interpretation of the Bible by the way) and this isn’t me saying, “yeah Sonng sure told them!!  Well maybe  a little but seriously, what I am celebrating is that we are having these discussions on a bigger level and in this case, in a general session.

I went to his talk-back session and there is just so much to try to say here that I’ll have to continue later.  I recommend that you get the mp3 of this session though.  (I will be just to process it again).  

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Youth Specialties Pittsburgh – Seminary Series 1 – Post 3 – #nywc

November 1, 2008 by Leave a Comment

For Seminar Series 1, I hopped around until I ended up at Marko’s Starting Right So You Don’t End Wrong.  The schedule suggests that it’s targeted for those who are in their first 2 years but I think I need to be reminded of many things after these 8 years.  Besides I like the guy and appreciate his stories.  He talked about the many misconceptions we have in youth ministry, many of them he held personally and was very up front of his mistakes.  (That’s cool because I’m still trying to figure out which one to admit as my first mistake – lol).

 

Aside from being reminded of these things, I regretted once again, not having all of my youth leaders here.  (I know, I know, I can order the dvd and play it for them) but these are some of the discussions we spend time on (sometimes too much time) in our youth leaders’ mtg.  (I just need to bring them here next year and get them saved ;-). 

Marko was gracious in answering questions that came up throughout the seminar.  A couple good questions were voiced and Marko gave some good answers ( I can update this later if anyone is interested in the Qs).  Good seminar, glad I ended up there.

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Youth Specialties – Pittsburgh – Recapping General Session 1 – Post 2 – #nywc

November 1, 2008 by Leave a Comment

Day 1 Recap

Got in the General Session toward the end of Newworldson’s set.  They looked like they were having a good time and people were liking them. 

Sat in up close to the band stage left of center with the speakers seemingly inches away from our ears.  Who’s dumb idea was that?  Oh mine.  I saw seats up front.  We sat in front of a couple that went to my (and my wife’s) alma-mater, Liberty University.  Always good to see fellow alumni.  

 

Starfield led us in worship and I must say, even though they are Canadian, they’re pretty good.  (Kidding, kidding, you’re supposed to make fun of Canadians.  It’s an expression of love and allows them to feel distinct in their un-americanness.  If we treated them like we treated Americans, they’d be offended that you didn’t appreciate what makes them different – you see?)

 

The speaker was Mike Pilavachi.  High energy youth pastor who’s been around from London.  He shared some of his failures, frustrations, and even a couple of things he got right.  He revealed that Matt Redman came up through his youth group and recounted a couple of stories about Matt.  He spent a lot of time talking about Jesus’ interaction and discipleship of the 12.  Appreciated he was the first speaker, brought some normalness to youthworkers and I had never heard him before.  

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Youth Specialties – Pittsburgh – Post 1 – #nywc

November 1, 2008 by Leave a Comment

I enjoy coming to the YS Conference.  It’s always been a great thing for me, my family & inner circle, and my ministry.  Glad to be here with some our Jr. High Pastor also named Tim and a couple of guys from my cohort at Biblical Seminary, Jeremiah, KJ and his wife, Arin. 

Each year, I look forward to this event and if you know me, you know enjoy going to conferences and lectures and seminars and whatever.   There’s a story or two in how these YS Events have shaped certain parts of my story but I’ll save that for another day, because I’m pretty tired.

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